| "ATSIC Bowled Out" |
| Sunday, 18 April 2004 - 9.30 pm AEST |
| Gary Foley and Jackie Huggins discuss the finer points of both
party's plans for ATSIC and it's broader implications for Aboriginal
Affairs. |
|
| Guests: |
| Gary Foley |
| Gary Foley is an Koori activist, writer and historian. He's a
Gumbainggir man from New South Wales. |
| Jackie Huggins |
| Indigenous member of ATSIC Review panel. She's also Co-chair of
Reconciliation Australia, writer and historian. |
| Presenter: Karen Dorante |
|
| Karen Dorante : Northern Territory deputy chief minister, Syd
Stirling, commenting on the Federal Government's axing of ATSIC and its
plan to appoint an advisory body made up of distinguished Indigenous
representatives. So how will the latest developments in Aboriginal Affairs
impact on Indigenous communities? Will we see a return to the days of
blackfellas protesting and marching on the streets and is the A-L-P the
saviour of a national black voice. I'm Karen Dorante and with me are two
indigenous Australians who remember the protest days of the sixties and
seventies. Gary Foley was one of the key figures involved in the
Aboriginal Tent Embassy and the Springbok and Commonwealth Games protests.
He's now an historian based in Victoria. My other guest is Jackie Huggins
who was part of the ATSIC Review panel, she's also an historian and
co-chair of Reconciliation Australia. Welcome to both of you. What will
the history books of the future says about ATSIC and this particular
period in Aboriginal Affairs? |
|
| Jackie Huggins: Well ATSIC has existed now for 15 years I think
that people have termed it as an experiment in Indigenous Affairs, which
has failed. I think what will show was that obviously there was a lot of
controversy around this time around the allegations of Geoff Clark and
other national leadership within ATSIC and really the demise has happened
through a number of reasons. I can't help to think that the media has
obviously played a big part in all of this in bringing to the attention of
the public, the Australian people, sometimes too unfairly without full
knowledge of what ATSIC is, has done and what it did in the past and
really to replace it with nothing or an advisory body I think is terribly
wrong. So we'll say what's the next challenge and how do we try to get
better outcomes for Indigenous people? |
|
| Karen Dorante : Will it be seen as a dark phase in Aboriginal
Affairs? |
|
| Jackie Huggins: Yes well at the moment there's a dark cloud
hanging over all of us. There will be some people of course who will be
rejoicing particularly the right-wingers and One Nation Party definitely
has always been saying that ATSIC should be abolished. Pauline Hanson
raised it, got rapped over the knuckles for it, now all the white fellas
are rejoicing about her victory in saying that. You know I think we've got
to think long-term. I think everyone's still a bit in shock about the
total devastation and the quickness of the response from the government.
However it's not really surprising because the government had the review
in last November and did nothing to respond about the recommendations.
Here we find ourselves in a political minefield where Latham says
something and Prime Minister comes back and says something else that's
even more devastating, so what do you do? According to the news polls
around the place ninety percent of the Australian population are in favour
of it, so I think history will show that this has been one of the dark old
days of Aboriginal Affairs. People have fought for to establish ATSIC and
I guess no-one better that Gary knows about that in relation to getting
better services, better organisation, better programs up for Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander people. And I guess the next thing is what
happens to the community-controlled organisations. Where do they go? How
do they fit it? I think that's the next mark on the board really. |
|
| Karen Dorante : Gary Foley? |
|
| Gary Foley: I agree with Jackie on her last point. I would
suggest however that when people are distant enough from this time to
examine the history of ATSIC and what happened, I think they'll discover
the real niggers in the woodpile in this little exercise was not John
Howard and his mates, but instead the A-L-P, after all ATSIC was created
by the A-L-P and I'm on record a long time ago of pointing out the flaws
in ATSIC. I've never been a great supporter of ATSIC but it doesn't
particularly please me at the moment that it's gone because of the context
in which it's gone. I think John Howard; I mean this was all eminently
predictable from Howard's position. He's an old assimilationist from way
back, he loves the 1950s, he wants to take all of Australia back to there
and this is yet another part of it. The other thing I think that history
will be harsh in it's judgement of are some of the Aboriginal leaders who
are now dismissing the idea of a group of experts advising governments, I
mean what was the A team? There's certain Aboriginal leaders around who
were quite happy to sort of jump in bed with the A-L-P when they set up
their self-appointed bunch of supposed experts and leaders to negotiate
the native title act which has proven to be a complete and absolute
disaster. So I mean there's not going to be many winners in the history of
ATSIC. I think it will also demonstrate, I would like to hope in future
history will show that finally the Aboriginal people and especially the
purported Aboriginal leadership finally realise we're in a situation of
limbo in Australia. I mean historically they've always regarded the A-L-P
as the good guys in Aboriginal Affairs and the Libs and Nationals as the
bad guys, but since the Keating Government, since Bob Hawke backed off on
his promise of national uniform land rights legislation which is what the
Hawke government promised us from the beginning … ever since then the
supposed good guys have in fact been worse than the bad guys. So
Aboriginal Australia is essentially left in political limbo. It wouldn't
surprise me if, no I'm not going to saying anything rash, but as we wake
up this morning Aboriginal Australia confronted with a government that is
clearly assimiliationist in its intent, I mean look at the statements of
the minister in the last couple of days. It's clearly an assimiliationist
message which takes us all the way back to good old 1930s, 40s and 50s,
you know isn't it marvellous. It doesn't surprise me that the public
opinion polls show so much support, the way in which the media flogged
ATSIC in the last few years it's clear that the Australian people have
been conditioned into supporting the position of the government, after
all, Australia is a nation of sheep. |
|
| Karen Dorante : So we're not likely to ever see the kind of
support for Aboriginal Affairs we saw during the 60s, during the
referendum? |
|
| Gary Foley: Well absolutely not and there's clear historical
reasons why you won't. I'm mean when Bob Hawke promised national uniform
land rights for Aboriginal people legislation he was immediately opposed
and the reason he backed off was because of this huge, vicious,
gerbil-style propaganda campaign mounted by the vested interest in the
pastoral and mining areas. The intensity of that particular campaign and
then the later campaign against the native title act by the same sort of
vested interest has resulted in Australian people being conditioned into
believing all sorts of racist twaddle. That's how come Pauline Hanson got
a run in her day and it's real interesting to see Mark Latham picking up
the reins of Hansonism and running with it, mixing it with his Thatcherism
and Reaganism so you know Australians ought to think hard and long about
voting for a lunatic like him as an alternative to John Howard.
Essentially the choice Australians now have politically is between
Tweedledum and Tweedledee. |
|
| Karen Dorante : Jackie Huggins, do you have a different
position? |
|
| Jackie Huggins: In terms of the historical analysis that right,
you know we've actually come back to where we were thirty years ago. The
old NACC days when Aboriginal people were just purely advisors to the
government and really I believe that wasn't successful and of course reeks
of assimilation of course. We are in limbo and I'm just waiting for
another sun to shine or something or the sun to come up over the ocean
give us a brighter day. But I think we're also a bit numbed by what's
happening right today in terms of contemporary Indigenous Affairs there
are people around who would obviously feel very relieved that all this is
happening to Indigenous people. Nevertheless we've got our children, our
grandchildren, children's children to think of in all of this and you know
how we all pay our and make our contribution to better life at the moment
its bit of a see saw if we can even say that, might be an equilibrium.
|
|
| Gary Foley: I think it's interesting what Jackie's saying…at
the end of the day if you look at history we are simply the latest
generation of Aboriginal people who've been done over. I mean all of the
great Aboriginal leaders of the last hundred years have all died virtually
of a broken heart. (Jackie Huggins: Yeah) Bill Ferguson died of a
broken heart because the ALP screwed him, here we are fifty years later
lot of us a dying of a broken heart. Me and Jackie have both lost lots of
friends, all black fellas have lost. The movement has lost a lot of good
people in the last ten years and every single one of them have died
without seeing the things that they fought for all their life achieved and
I fully expect to die the same way. |
|
| Karen Dorante : How will the Aboriginal cause emerge out of
this? We are obviously getting younger in terms of the Indigenous
population, will we see a new era in black radicalism as some leaders are
predicting? |
|
| Gary Foley: Well one would hope so. I mean I thought it was a
bit funny that Lois O'Donoghue said we were all gonna be back on the
streets like we used to be. I think it's really important that the next
generation learn from the mistakes that we've made, that people in our
generation have made. |
|
| Karen Dorante : What are those mistakes? |
|
| Gary Foley: That a lot of them jumped in bed with the A-L-P and
people have got to realise look at all of the sort of cooperation in the
early 1970s the days of confrontation and challenging the Australian
government where we actually won some of those challenges we achieved more
in those three or four years than all of the thirty years since where
people have allowed themselves to be co-opted into the system. I mean
there's a lot of rich black fellas' walking around nowadays. There wasn't
in the 1970s, nobody was rich in the 1970s and I think the emergence of a
black middle class has softened the way in which we deal with government
and if the next generation want to make that same mistake the writing
should be clear on the wall that approach being cooperative with
government and allowing yourself to be manipulated has spectacularly
failed. One would hope that the new generation of Aboriginal leadership
will see that and take the challenge up to the Federal Government a bit
stronger then it's been done in the last twenty years or so. |
|
| Karen Dorante : Jackie Huggins? |
|
| Jackie Huggins: Yeah, I totally agree with Gary in terms of the
young leadership. I feel they're far more of course rather then like the
old days it terms of education they've got it, sophistication. A lot of
them haven't got the street wise smartness that obviously people like
Gary, Dennis Walker, Sam Watson, Bruce McGuinness, you know I could go on
and on and on, you knew grew up within that and I to a certain extent grew
up in the 60s, 70s with that whole passion and fire in our bellies. Our
young leadership now it's kind of grown up fairly passive if I could be so
bold in terms of not (Gary Foley: Bourgeois and conservative,
that's what they are) Yeah, hit the nail on the head there Gary. There's
been that kind of luxury not taking to the streets you know. In those
great days there obviously the fire was still in the belly it still
maintained its rage and a lot of our younger people although there are
fantastic people around I think should really rise to the occasion now and
look they say that you know no-one's willing to stand away and let them up
well you know I know plenty of people that are willing to do that because
you know as Gary has said we're dying of broken hearts. We're dying you
see, we're losing our people. I lost one of my best brothers he was 49
years of age the other night from a massive heart attack. What's
happening, we're still going backwards in many respects. |
|
| Gary Foley: Because our leaders are dying so young a lot of the
younger generation don't really get the opportunity to learn from history
and history has the really powerful lessons. Anything that any new
emerging young Koori activist needs to know is in the pages of history. Go
and learn about assimilationism, what it really means. And the new
generation of educated young fellas should understand the implications of
assimilationism because it's a very seductive sort of thing, go to the
universities and they get their mainstream stuff and they go out and work
in the mainstream world and they lose contact with their community, that's
the path to the destruction of Aboriginal people as a distinct people in
this country. People have got to consider very carefully the implications
of what Howard is advocating and Vanstone is proposing, you know, she's
talking about we all one people in Australia you know we're mainstreaming
their services. One of the greatest lessons of history that even Howard
and them ought to understand is that history clearly shows that
mainstreaming failed miserably. Mainstreaming was largely the cause of a
lot of the problems that are out there now that we're claiming to want to
address and so to sort of go back to mainstreaming is just insanity, but
there you go. I reckon young people need to brush up on their history,
look at the way we have been screwed as a people for 200 years. Every
generation has tried to resist and every generation has ultimately been
screwed and we've been losing the battle for 200 years and if we keep
losing it much longer there ain't gonna be any of us. |
|
| Karen Dorante : Jackie Huggins, Mark Latham has a really hard
task ahead of him doesn't he in terms of trying to sell his alternate
proposal to set up a new improved ATSIC considering that most Australians
seem to support John Howard's position? |
|
| Jackie Huggins: Yes, and I think that's the political smartness
of, astuteness of John Howard in terms of delivering the blow the other
day. It was sort of one-upmanship of politics being played again, somebody
does something half and the other person will come and do it fully. Yet
again Aboriginal people are the result of being left as a political
football in all of this. Latham does have a hard time to sell this but you
know I tend to always think which ever party has got in, who is better
than the other? |
|
| Gary Foley: I agree. I'd go a step further. I would argue that
since 1950 the governments that have done more damage to Aboriginal people
and to Aboriginal interests have in fact been Labor: Whitlam, Hawke and
Keating. We're left in a really extraordinarily difficult situation and I
would argue that we ought to be putting the blowtorch on those blackfellas
who take high profile positions in the A-L-P. There are a few Aboriginal
A-L-P members of parliament around the country and one of the presidents
of the A-L-P at the moment is Mr Mundine. What the hell's Mundine got to
say for himself? Those people who've chosen to work within the system
ought to have the blowtorch put on them so they can put the blowtorch on
people in the A-L-P. I think the only real political way out of this mess
is for Aboriginal Australia to turn its attention on the A-L-P and try and
get the boofhead who is now the leader of the A-L-P to change his
position. He's got to change his position because otherwise the only
alternative whether people like it or not is pretty grim. |
|
| Jackie Huggins: Yeah and in terms of political parties and
that, my advice to young aspiring Indigenous leaders coming up, don't join
a party because once you do (Gary Foley: You're compromised) People
will brand you It's a compromise you have to follow the party line and I'm
sure that all of us have been asked to stand for various parties and so
forth. I choose not to because I don't have the faith in the political
system at all, whether its, you know, whatever kind of persuasion. |
|
| Gary Foley: I don't vote because I'm not an Australian. I'm a
Gumbainggir man. Simple. If you vote, I mean if voting could change
anything it would be illegal and doesn't matter who you vote for,
politician gets in. When the Australian people finally wake up to
themselves then maybe they'll stop being a nation of sheep and we really
can be an independent nation. People shouldn't be surprised by John Howard
proposing a group of specialist advisors I mean he likes to have things
that tell him what he wants to hear just look at what's going on in other
aspects of politics at the moment that's precisely what he's doing in
security area and other areas so why shouldn't he do it to us. |
|
| Karen Dorante : Well look just one final question; can we
actually draw any positives out of ATSIC's demise? |
|
| Gary Foley: Yes, absolutely. It means that a vast of number of
white fellas are going to be out of work. |
| Jackie Huggins: Yes it does. I think it's about 70 percent.
|
|
| Gary Foley: Lotta white fellas on the dole queues tomorrow.
Good job Johnny Howard. |
|
| Jackie Huggins: And the other thing is you know I think when
it's all when the sun comes up or something I can never see this, but I
would love to see a turn around of white people in this country but I
don't think that's going to happen. |
|
| Gary Foley: I'd also say the great irony in my position is I've
been one of the most vehement vocal critics of ATSIC from its, even before
its beginning. It's a great irony that at this point in time some good
people are going to go down with ATSIC. And I'm specifically referring,
there are good people on ATSIC at the moment and I'm not just saying
because he's my brother. But my brother is one of the few honest men that
I've known in Aboriginal Affairs in thirty-five years. (Jackie Huggins:
This is Cliff) We don't always agree on everything obviously but
(Jackie Huggins: He's a good man.) I have an enormous amount of
respect for him and there's other people on ATSIC at the moment who are
really good people. Not everybody is like some there. It's a great tragedy
that some of them are going to be lost to the scene. I think it was, I got
a great deal of respect for my brother and other people on ATSIC and
that's probably the tragic part of it that some of them are going to get
tarred with the same brush of others. It's a pity but I think in other
ways it's a good thing because I've always said we should get rid of it
and think of a new way. I'm not thinking John Howard's way but it does
give us an opportunity to maybe get a bit of unity back into Aboriginal
Australia with the realisation that unless we all pull together on this
and we are unified then we're going to get well and truly done over. In
the past when we've been unified in the late 60s and 70s we moved
mountains as Chairman Mao says. |
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